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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've got a friend who knows a bloke that would remap my A5 3.0TDI for me for around £450-500. Apparently this guy is the bloke who Audi contact whenever customers come to them and ask for a remap to be done to their cars?? He takes a copy of the OEM map, sends it to some place in Denmark and they then send him back a new map specific for my Car, he then downloads that to the ECU and apparently this will increase power, throttle response, torque AND MPG? A few questions for you guys in the know:

1. Does this sound expensive?
2. Would Audi really remap a new car if you asked them?
3. I can see how it could increase power etc, but would it really improve MPG?

Cheers people! :D
 

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So increased power (and torque), response as well as mpg? Sounds like a tough equation to me..

Why do you believe the Danish company to be better engine specialists than Audi themselves? Don't you think Audi would do the same if it was possible? My firm belief is that the Audi engineers do their bloody damn best to try and compete with the BMW powertrains and the usual trade-off is power (torque) - NVH - emissions - consumption - response. Maybe I missed some more parameters but you get the idea.

To manage to increase ALL at the same time sounds too good to be true.

To claim is one thing, to prove it is another :)

As I stated in another post, please prove me wrong so I can take the plunge myself and get some more punch in my 3.0 !

I do not mean to flame you or anyone else in this forum, it's just that I have done engine research for a number of years and know how tough the above equation is to beat.

Again, I do hope I am wrong!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
His view was that Audi produce a 'generic' ECU that can be used all over the world, which makes sense I guess as they only have to manufacture one. He then told me that because of the different country temps the ECU can be adjusted to give optimum performance based on temps etc?

Now I'm certainly no expert but I did own an Evo 8 before I ordered this car and I had that mapped, to say it made a difference was an understatement, it increased BHP by around 60+, torque, don't think it improved MPG though, I believe this actually went down and I'd expect it to too as the car requires more fuel to make it go faster.

I'm just interested to know what you more knowledgable guys think, that's why I submitted the post?
 

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Your friend does have a point in that engine software most probably is made so that it can handle different markets. EU markets likely use one generic map but I would suspect that the US map is different depending on different emissions legislations and fuel qualitiy. The US tier2/bin5 emission standards for diesels are quite tough, are the TDIs even sold there?

One of the reasons to have generic maps is cost/time. Nowadays with piezo injectors it is possible to inject several times each combustion cycle. This much freedom in injection timing of course also require much more work in optimizing the engine. We are talking about over 15 independent parameters to be optimized in each load/speed operating point of the engine map. On top of that you need to optimize for transients (response/driveability/NVH). If you sum up all the optimizations that need to be done only to have ONE map, it's pretty clear that the OEM's tend to just make one for several car modelss and/or markets. So of course there are gains to be made by customizing for your specific car.

But if you turn it around and look at it this way instead: Your Danish friend's company must go through the same painstaking amount of optimization for each map they sell. And how could they afford to do that? Simple answer is that they probably couldn't. Where do they get the resources and insight into how the engine operates?

So instead they probably target only one or two parameters to optimize which means that there will be unseen consequences that the customer will not be aware of such as durability issues or increases in fuel consumption and/or emissions. For example, the dpf regeneration scheme may not be fully operational with these kinds of remaps as the soot model is quite difficult to map. This may lead to error codes if the engine is run under conditions which produce more soot than normal.

Oh, I just re-read my posts and I do seem sceptical to all this, don't I?
hehe, well sorry for that! Not my intention to step on anyone's toes or anything. I'm just trying to be helpful and may very well be wrong about these things.

In response to the market differentiations in terms of temperature:

Generally the car will run better when it's cold outside and at sea level beacuse of the increased density of air. More air molecules per volume unit means more fuel to be combusted without overfueling the engine --> more power. This, however, is typically regulated automatically via the air mass sensor but I'm not sure exactly how Audi does it.

Hope the remap works for you and that I am mistaken about what I've written.

Sincerely,
Mikael
 

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My previous car was a highly tuned Mk4 Golf 1.9 TDI, which started out with 115BHP.

I had a Revo remap which increased power to 150BHP, and the difference was staggering. It took over a second off the 0-60, and if driven in the same manner as the standard car would give better economy. Better economy comes from not the BHP increase, but the lb/ft... It basically means you can maintain the same speed, with less throttle. For those that study their MPG screen religiously will know that throttle position effects economy on TDI engines, almost more than gear selection.

The car was high mileage - I had the remap done at 105,000 miles. Around 30,000 miles later the turbo oil seals blew, and I had a whole engine's worth of oil exit out the back of the exhaust.

To send it back to the dealer to be returned to standard would have cost thousands, so instead I took it the UK's no. 1 diesel tuning specialist - Allard Motorsport in Gloucester.

Over a number of weeks my engine was completely rebuilt with a new hybrid turbo, PD150 injectors, custom FMIC, BMC CDA Induction Kit, EGR blanking kit, Remap, etc... The result - 221BHP & over 350lb/ft. Here's the graph from the last time it was rolling roaded:



Video:

At the time, I was completely ignorant to performance diesels, or indeed the principles of diesel tuning. I used to get 45MPG on commutes, and around 28MPG if I really pushed it, with the standard engine and Revo remap. I expected the MPG to drop drastically based on the fact that more fuel = worse MPG. But I was completely wrong! On the drive back from Gloucester I got 52MPG... The increase in torque made such a massive difference.

Performancewise it's the quickest car I've ever driven. 0-60 was in the low 5s, which with FWD made for interesting handling in the wet / cold! MPGwise, it never dropped below 25MPG.

Anyway, here's a couple of pics of the car to boot:





As you can see it's an R32 lookalike, and had Porsche brakes, wheels, Koni adjustable suspension, ARBs, full exhaust - the whole lot... I do miss it!

Cheers,

T
 

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T.... out of curiousty how much did the rebuild on the engine cost you ?
 

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Hi Andy,

The original Allard work was between 3 and 4 thousand, but I spent thousands more on the car overall, as at first it needed a new head, and then eventually a new block. This was more to do with total mileage than anything else. It had over 165,000 on it by the time the rear axle bushes failed and sent me into a motorway slip road ditch!

But that's a whole different story...

The car's being rebuilt by a friend of mine who just so happens to be a workshop manager of a local VAG specialist, and we're going to get our licences, and enter it into the VW Cup!

T
 

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Incidentally, I have had no luck with cars whatsoever...

I've had my Phantom Black 3.0TDI A5 Sport since the beginning of February, and I'd barely done 2000 miles before an old boy in his 70s drove into the side of me on a roundabout down in Dorchester. Thankfully there was a witness, and the repairs are covered by the 3rd party insurer. They picked up my car on Friday, and are estimating 3 weeks to repair. It's gone to the Wayside Group in Bletchley who I understand are one of the best Audi bodyshops in the country. And to ease the pain I have a fully loaded A4 Cabriolet 3.0TDI S-Line as a courtesy car!

Anyway, enough of my babble...

T
 

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nice 1.9 TDI, i was going to buy one before I moved to the US, and today I drive a R32 :).

I'm curious about one thing, did you spend more in your 1.9 TDI than a R32 value?
 

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Timbotdi, congrats to your cool car! And I must say it was a very interesting story.

Let me just clear out some misconceptions.

1. The required torque for a given time is not depending on how much you have available. What I mean with this is that if you for example cruise along the highway at 60 mph (or whatever), the required torque is depending on aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance and other loss factors. This has nothing to do with how much max torque your engine can deliver. So a remap which gives you a higher max lb/ft (max torque) does not let you run the vehicle at lower torques for the same driving condition. So the MPG has not so much to do with how much max torque you got but more to do with losses and I assume those are unchanged with a remap. Maybe the new map has optimized the combustion for those load points you are running giving less losses? That is, i believe, a more likely reason to your improved MPG after the remap.

2. Diesel engines do not have throttles. To regulate the torque output (load), the amount of injected fuel is regulated. For gasoline engines, however, things are a bit different. Gasoline engines operate with premixed combustion which requires a global equivalence ratio between around 0.7-1.3 to ignite. (equivalence ratio is the relationship between the amount of ful and air, ie how rich/lean you are running). So in order to keep the equivalence ratio within the combustible limits a throttle (or restriction) is mounted in the air inlet pipe. For low loads when you only need little fuel, you need to restrict the air. That's what the throttle is for.

Diesel engines do not operate with premixed combustion (well, actually parts of the combustion takes place premixed), but with diffusion combustion. Hence, there is no need to keep the equivalence ratio constant and therefore you don't have the throttle which is in fact one of the main factors why diesels have lower fuel consumption (the lack of throttle and increased compression ratio are the biggest reasons for that).

I am not questioning the fact that you indeed got better MPG after the remap, it's just that I believe the reasons you provide are wrong. I am more into thinking that the operating points you are running in were optimized (maybe less EGR or improved injection timings). Of course, less EGR and/or optimized timings have impact on the emissions so probably your engine emits more soot and NOx. But that's a different story :p

Anyway, thanks for a great story and for getting me thinking about engine optimizations again!

Good luck with your motoring!

OH, and another thing:

there is a relationship between power and torque!

Power = 2 * phi * engine speed * torque. (if the correct units are applied).

So power (BHP, kW) and torque (lb/ft, Nm) are related and for a given engine speed more or less the same thing apart from the 2* phi :cool:

/Mikael
 

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Oh, also forgot to say I'm sorry for your A5 getting crashed! Mine has been in for repair almost ten (!) times since I got it so I know what it's like not to have it around... kind of miss it!!
 

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nice 1.9 TDI, i was going to buy one before I moved to the US, and today I drive a R32 :).

I'm curious about one thing, did you spend more in your 1.9 TDI than a R32 value?
Can't go far wrong with the R32... I always wanted one, but decided to make the TDI quicker, with twice the economy! Now I've got 4WD on the A5, I wouldn't go back though...


Mikael,

Thanks for all the info - you're clearly very knowledgeable when it comes to horses and torques! I think I understand better now, the relationship between the two, than I ever have.

It's gutting to have the A5 in the bodyshop, but the anticipation of getting it back as new, makes me feel like I'm getting a new car all over again! In the interim, the Audi A4 Cabriolet is a nice novelty, but the overall driving experience just doesn't compare.

Cheers,

T
 

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Thanks for the compliment :)

I do know some things about engines in theory but admit I am new to all this remapping. I just know how bloody much work goes into creating the original maps and the amount of resources needed to support that.

I also know that power and consumption (incl CO2) sells and therefore the OEM's do as good as they can in order to deliver this while maintaining the emissions at legal levels as well as guaranteeing durability, driveability and NVH.

Knowing this, I find it hard to trust these tune-companies and how they manage to get a so much "better" map than the original.

In saying that, I want to make clear that I do not know how these remappers work and do not wish to claim that their work is inferior. I'm just sceptical and wish to be proven wrong :rolleyes:

Anyways, now my A5 is in the workshop again! This time for another software "upgrade" to the ECU. Maybe the original map wasn't so great after all :eek:

Maybe I'll have to drive BMW's from now on since my A5 is so messed up..
 

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Remapping

Good day
Appologies if this has already been discussed - although i've had my A5 for some time now I've only just stumbled on to the site.

Does anyone know of a company in the UK who can remap the 3.0 engine.

A colleague of mine had his X5 done by Superchips, but they, so far, dont offer it for the A5 3.0.

My colleague suspects this is because the Audi engine is already heavily tuned (He's a BMW fan so I think its just a bit of greeneye)

Any comments?
Thanks
 

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Welcome to the forum!

There's actually an existing thread on this topic. I'm going to merge your post with that one.

EDIT: The threads have now been merged.
 

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Good man - thanks
Actually I started to look more at the site and found it -
Thanks for that -
great forum - thanks for the welcome too
 
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