[Starski]

Hey, one of the other posts just reminded me about one more important thing I wanted to ask all you A5/S5 owners. I could not find anything about this on the forums.

--> Can you left foot break in the A5/S5?? I just remembered that most Audis cut the fuel if you press the break while having the accelerator pressed.

If it is possible then what are your feelings on heel and toe downshifting in it? Is the car stable during the maneuver? Is it easy to choose the appropriate revs or do you usually end up over or under revving it?

 

[wrx_xb9r]

I will try at lunch. I use left foot braking on the track all the time. This will s*** if I can not just scrub some speed or load the front end to get it turn better without killing the engine.

 

[houseofg]

And for this particular newb to this kind of stuff, what is heel and toe downshifting?

 

[wrx_xb9r]

And for this particular newb to this kind of stuff, what is heel and toe downshifting?

This link should help you.

 

[houseofg]

Thanks and wow. Sure would like to learn that..preferably in someone else's car

 

[wrx_xb9r]

It is not that hard to do. You can learn in your own car with no problems. Syncromesh transmissions make this so much easier. I think on the S5 each gear has triple cones. This makes grinding gears very difficult. First practice in your garage with the engine off. Put a fair amount of brake force on the pedal then twist your foot to blip the throttle. After a bit you will get used to how much you have to move your foot to make it work. Then you can try it with the engine running to see how many rpms you gain for how much of a throttle hit. Practice will get it so that you are smooth. No dips in braking and perfect rpm matching on downshifts.

BTW, This is much easier if you are driving the car hard and are in the upper half of the rpm range.

 

[houseofg]

Thanks again! I assume the same goes for the A5 tranny (syncromesh and triple cone...?)

 

[wrx_xb9r]

Thanks again! I assume the same goes for the A5 tranny (syncromesh and triple cone...?)

I have not checked specifically but I would assume so.

 

[scratch113]

Heel-and-toe is something I taught myself to do in the 2.8Q and then refined (I wouldn't ever claim perfected!) in the S4. Seems to be just as good in the A5, although the way the car drives is much more 'relaxed' anyway, so I don't find I'm 'pressing on' quite as much as I used to in my S4, so don't use it nearly as much. Probably better for the longevity of my license anyway!

Two other things it also achieves not mentioned in the Wikepedia article - firstly, matching the revs by blipping the throttle avoids any engine braking which then means that all the braking is done by your right foot, and it makes it easier to control (and therefore smoother - this smoothness is mentioned). In a turbo car, it will also spin up the turbo before engaging the gear, thereby ensuring the hit of turbo boost is instantly available on the exit of the corner, eliminating a large part of the turbo lag (you can never get rid of it unless you're in a full-on WRX car!)

Of course, it does nothing for the fuel economy if you're driving in this manner on a regular basis

*Disclaimer*
All of this is just my humble musings on the effects of using heel-and-toe and is in no way a authoritative technical explanation - I'm fully expecting to have the errors of my musings pointed out!

 

[houseofg]

Boy, I tried it just for feel in my ol' B5 A4 when I came home (i.e. in the garage!) and it would be a serious no go in that car. The gas pedal is far forward of the brake pedal. Sounds like the A5 is different.

 

[JSC]

This link should help you.

FWIW, I find it easier to turn my right foot 90 degrees, use my heel to brake, and blip the gas with my toe. Not conventional, but in my A4 it works fine. Can't comment about whether it works in my A5, as it's still held in port - oops! was I whining a little there??

 

[S5France]

I have no problem heel and toe down-shifting - do it all the time, mainly for fun - but have been doing it for years - no problem I guess in the S5, assuming you are already used to doing it probably.

 

[Ianhp1]

FWIW, I find it easier to turn my right foot 90 degrees, use my heel to brake, and blip the gas with my toe. Not conventional, but in my A4 it works fine. Can't comment about whether it works in my A5, as it's still held in port - oops! was I whining a little there??

.
This is the case in most modern cars as the throttle pedal is usually well below the brake pedal and relatively high up. Using your heel on the brake takes a bit more getting used to.... My alfas would allow me to use my heel on the throttle in the 'conventional' or 'correct' manner, every other car I ahve driven I had to use my heel on the brake... on a vauxhaul (opel) I even had to use my toe on the throttle stem as the pedals were awfully placed.

..After 8 years of A6s though I have got out of the habbit because these would not let you push both pedals... although I did double de-clutch (without braking) when shifting down more than one gear (say for overtaking) where the rev difference is large this makes it quicker, amoother and as mentioned, spun the turbos up so I got instant power after the change.

As with others, I haven't tried left foot braking in the S5 as I had assumed it was like the other Audis I've owned... will try later!

 

[Rab88]

I do the same thing practically every day, but I let the car coast more, rather than braking at the same time.

 

[Ianhp1]

Videos of Heel & toe and left-foot braking

Guys, here's a few vids I found that show this well. The first is THE MASTER and one of the pioneers of this technique -Walther Rohl rally driving the Audi Quattro - the man who mastered this beast! His heel and toe is very subtle... but just watch that footwork! The second is an Audi on the track with much clearer heel and toe. I have included a couple of other FYI. Note how the throttle pedal on all of these is close to and at the same level as the depressed brake pedal and also has a long, tall face to create a surface area to help this technique.

Walther Rohl - Audi quattro (Excellent video but poor quality)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxkQmcDsulU&feature=relatedA


Audi on tracktrack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur6TPkrM


Two others:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4iQM9P044Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihCgxQnex5Q

 

[Starski]

So can you guys confirm that the A5/S5 does not cut the power if you press both the gas and break at the same time?

Also about the tecnique. What I do is use the side of my foot to blip the accelerator. I do not turn my foot, but this I guess depends on the size of your foot and the gap between the accelerator and break pedals. Of course I like them to be very close together . You do not have to worry about the accelerator being further back then the break as you do the heel and toe while having the break pressed in anyway (thus the pedals are almost on the same level then).

 

[Ianhp1]

Your technique is the 'orthodox' technique... as you will see from the vids. However I have found few cars that are set up right to do this...

...also, for those of you wanting to learn this, it's no use if you sit too far back... you need to have a bend in you knee and some extension of the heel available... Plus, as you know you should be able to touch the inside of your wrists on the top of the steering wheel... there's good boys!

 

[Ianhp1]

The Answer:

The Answer to the original question is...

I've just done a 'hot-lap' of the local B-roads and can confirm:

NO and YES!!!

The Bad News... NO you cannot left foot brake - the car will not let you apply power and the brake at the same time. It cuts the engine power.

The Good News... YES you CAN heel and toe. Since you are not applying power (your foot is on the clutch) the car lets you use the throttle whilst braking and changing gear. The great news is that the pedals will allow you to do this... by placing your right foot off-centre on the brake, you can roll the outside edge of your foot onto the throttle to rev match down the box. The throttle is a little high, but it can be done. I had got out of the habbit because the A6 wouldn't do it... Fun, fun, fun!

 

[Starski]

Great! Good to know heel and toe will be possible in my future A5 (if I ever get it, still no delivery date given )!

Thanks Ian.

 

[houseofg]

This thread rocks. I'm learning a lot - thanks for everyone's contribution.

Might the less-than-ideal (for this purpose) pedal placement be an exaggerated fix of the pedal placement issue that haunted Audi years ago (in the 80s)?