Pulley upgrade - Audi A5 Forum & Audi S5 Forum
 
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post #1 of 22 Old 10th May 2019, 01:11 AM Thread Starter
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Pulley upgrade

I'm thinking of tuning my S5 in the near future and want your opinion on the pulley upgrades.

Is it worth doing? By searching around a pulley upgrade seems to add around 25-30bhp, or is there more to it, eg charger spinning faster creating better torque or more response/power earlier in the revs?

@Dippy I see you fitted the Fluidampr dampened pulley? These are good quality and available in a wide choice of sizes eliminating the need to upgrade the SC pulley. But at nearly 4 figures, it's a choice not to be taken lightly.
Do 'solid' pulleys work just as well? Are there that many vibrations in the charger belt/crank pulley?

I see the CREC bolt-on charger pulley is now available.

Just looking for views/opinions on pulley upgrades or just have a good remap?

Also on the TCU remap, is it just the box mapping/shift maps that are changed or is the oil pressure upped and other limits?

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #2 of 22 Old 10th May 2019, 04:11 AM
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MRC has been fitting solid crank pulleys for over 5 years, and for the last 2 or so years in the US plenty of owners have been uprating to dual pulley, most with a solid crank pulley. I am unaware of any reports of problems which could be attributed to using an undamped crank pulley. I would suggest that this should give a high confidence that a solid pulley is OK in the short to medium term. The reason I chose a Vdamper (Fluidamper with adapter) was that I may well keep my car for longer, and I could afford it, so it was an easy decision.

It is worth noting that most of the data we have on reliability of these engines is based on the non-CREC engine, and that is even more true for tuning. I only know of one person who has stage 2 on a CREC engine using a smaller supercharger pulley, and he suffered clutch failures. Now this was whilst APR was testing higher levels of tune, so there is absolutely no evidence that this was due to the pulley. However this may be one extra reason why it might be best to choose the crank pulley method. The others are as before - there is a limit to how small a supercharger pulley can be without risking belt slip, and the OE crank pulley is a point of failure due to its rubber insert (which is why how it is dampened).

My advice is to start with the tuners. See what they offer and read some reviews. That should then help you decide which stage of tuning you want to go for.

Current: 2015 Audi S5 sportback black edition (MRC stage 2)
Previous: 2001 Audi B5 S4 avant (modified)
Previous: Subaru Impreza WRX (wrapped around a tree)
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post #3 of 22 Old 10th May 2019, 04:45 AM
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I have dual pulleys (APR).
I did them at different times - you will notice a difference.
Well worth it.
You will need a remap with either pulley to gain the full benefits of changing pulleys.
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post #4 of 22 Old 10th May 2019, 05:00 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks.

By looking at the supercharger speeds on APR's graph, just swapping the crank pulley gives a decent increase in SC speed. I'm not looking for the ultimate tune, just the most cost effective gains without stressing any engine parts to the limit.

So I'm thinking crank pulley and remap.

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #5 of 22 Old 10th May 2019, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kwatro View Post
Thanks. <a href="https://www.a5oc.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" >:-)</a>

By looking at the supercharger speeds on APR's graph, just swapping the crank pulley gives a decent increase in SC speed. I'm not looking for the ultimate tune, just the most cost effective gains without stressing any engine parts to the limit.

So I'm thinking crank pulley and remap. <a href="https://www.a5oc.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" >:-)</a>
Hi Dave the most cost effective with the most bang for your buck is simply a stage 1 ecu and tcu remap. It's the biggest gain for the least amount of money and without putting extra stress on the charger.
That being said I'm now considering pulleys etc purely on the fact that I know there is more power to be had rather than actually needing it.
If you know there's more power to be had it's a hard itch not to scratch.
The problem I find is that the car is so capable of doing big speed so comfortably, I sometimes find I'm slowing down for roundabouts/junctions ect and suddenly realize I'm still doing 70mph!
A brake upgrade should definitely be thought about while considering power upgrades.
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post #6 of 22 Old 11th May 2019, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah that's my line of thinking too, so thought I'd look at pulley upgrades, then get it mapped as the map probably will need tweaking for the pulleys.

Just put the spacers on mine! Looks much better and my private reg! Think the brakes are quite new! But dusty as fook!! Need to get Ceramic pads like my A5!!! But yeah thinking of a brake upgrade, either RS5 or the Brembo Xtra discs and performance pads.

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #7 of 22 Old 13th May 2019, 04:05 AM Thread Starter
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I'm thinking how much more you can get out of the engine if I put a charger drive pulley on it.

With the crank pulley 187mm = SC speed approx 22,250rpm
Charger drive pulley 57mm = 21,000rpm
Dual pulley = 24,000rpm
Stock = 18,500rpm

Is worth squeezing more RPM out of the SC? Or would just the crank pulley be suffice?

Sorry to keep going on, just looking for your opinions.

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #8 of 22 Old 13th May 2019, 05:55 AM Thread Starter
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Thinking of just the crank pulley as the SC drive pulley would be squeezing only a bit more out. Plus to actually get the full benefit of a dual pulley setup, the throttle body size restricts the power anyway.

Plus as Dippy has 475bhp with just the crank pulley and tune, that is not a figure to be scoffed at!! APR say 468bhp with their dual pulley on premium fuel, so the tuner may get more out of the engine from just mapping!?


Another Q, is the standard air filter good enough at this power or would an upgrade yield anymore?

Nearly getting to a decision!!

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #9 of 22 Old 13th May 2019, 07:18 AM
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You need a better air intake.
There's plenty to choose from, and all give different gains etc. etc.
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post #10 of 22 Old 14th May 2019, 04:02 AM Thread Starter
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Hmmm, now I've found a CTS pulley replaces the stock 'twin' pulley and is a solid 1 piece lightweight twin pulley.

The APR pulley basically bolts over the stock pulley and the stock pulley is left in place and the ancillary components still run off the stock pulley and the SC runs off the APR pulley which slots over the stock crank pulley.

Now, would running a non-dampened solid CTS pulley be detrimental in the long run or would it be lighter weight and more efficient that the bolt over APR pulley!?

The CTS pulley spec states it will have no detrimental effects on components, supercharge or crank as it has been harmonically balanced.

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #11 of 22 Old 14th May 2019, 04:22 AM
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It's all about ratio. If you want to max the supercharger out at 24K revs, at say 7200 engine rpm, then you need a ratio of 3.333. The OE supercharger pulley is supposed to be 63.25mm , so a 210mm crank pulley will just about hit that ratio. Of course finding one is the issue. iABED will do custom size rings for their Vdamper but I think their biggest in the past has been 206mm, which would run the supercharger to 23450rpm at the (raised) redline.

If you do that then you will definitely need a better charge cooler, and as @Spensley stated, intake mods will be a must.

The other concern is the cats, but for me the jury is out on exactly what the risk is. There are plenty of tales of melted cats in the US (refer to Audizine), but some of these are on stock cars. But what we do know is that on our cars the cats are mounted close to the downpipes and so they will get hot. Of course they need to be hot to work, but if they get too hot they can be damaged.

I chose to do a "standard" MRC stage 2* because I felt that it was a "proven" tune (as far as that is possible) and I could enjoy it without worrying too much about the hit on reliability. Similarly I might go to the next stage with a bigger TB, one MRC have completed their testing and maybe one or two people have had it for a while. I don't really want to have reliability hassles with my car just for the sake of a bit of extra power, when mine really is fast enough now.

*Actually my 189mm pulley is too big, but that's another story.

Current: 2015 Audi S5 sportback black edition (MRC stage 2)
Previous: 2001 Audi B5 S4 avant (modified)
Previous: Subaru Impreza WRX (wrapped around a tree)
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post #12 of 22 Old 14th May 2019, 05:35 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Dippy, you do put my mind at ease!!

I'm definitely not out for all out power as this would be 'stretching' the power output to near maximum. With just the oversized crank pulley at 187mm, this should spin the SC at around 22Krpm so a good 3krpm faster. Like you say going to dual pulley speeds of 24krpm then puts inlet temps up to max requiring further upgrade costs tto the charge cooling system.

By the way, what is the stock charge cooling system on the 3.0TFSi, is it air to air or water? I can see what looks like an intercooler at the front low down, same position as the TDi intercoolers.

I think the dampened versus solid billet pulley has been done to death with the only pulley failures being the stock OEM one where the damper material joining the pulley ring to the hub of the pulley is the only know issues. No other failures have been reported on the 3.0 TFSi.

The pulleys I'm looking at are 187mm, APR and CTS, also JHM, the APR being the bolt over stock pulley and the later 2 being a full replacement of the stock pulley. Although APR are effectively giving you half a crank pulley, they are quite a bit more in cost!

Do you have a 'sports' air filter. I used to mess around with different air intakes on previous cars with no real benefit, but they were not swallowing enough air for 450bhp! Plus the fine tolerances of the SC puts me off getting a free flowing, but less filtration air filter. The standard air filter is a cone sporty looking thing anyway and is the same as the air gulping 3.0TDi.

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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Last edited by Dave Kwatro; 14th May 2019 at 05:39 AM.
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post #13 of 22 Old 15th May 2019, 12:12 AM Thread Starter
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Ordered a CTS 187mm pulley! lets hope it's ok!

I tried to get 1 from Modded Euros in Philly, but they wouldn't ship to the UK, so got one from France! Even though it's made in Canada!

Anyway still a fair chunk cheaper than an APR! The APR would be easier to fit, but for the price you could get a set of alloy wheels!!

Just deciding whether to get a performance filter or whether the gains aren't enough for the less filtration!? When I get the car mapped, could get them to RR it and remove the airfilter for a run without which should show any gains possible from a performance airfilter.

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #14 of 22 Old 15th May 2019, 01:13 AM Thread Starter
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Just been reading further and found some 3 year old posts!

This Excel sheet is really good!! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...I8c/edit#gid=0
@Dippy why do you think your pulley is too big? The pulley ratio according to the Excel sheet is still well within limits for SC speed and temps?

I think about just over a ration of 3 is optimum. Mine is 2.95 with just a 187mm crank pulley, stock is 2.56.
@Smokey Joe when are you getting a pulley(s)?

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #15 of 22 Old 15th May 2019, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kwatro View Post
By the way, what is the stock charge cooling system on the 3.0TFSi, is it air to air or water? I can see what looks like an intercooler at the front low down, same position as the TDi intercoolers.
There are two intercoolers inside the supercharger housing. Those black pipes at the front of it then circulate coolant via the front rad. You might find this interesting: https://procarmanuals.com/vag-ssp-62...ine-ea837-evo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kwatro View Post
Do you have a 'sports' air filter.
Yes - whatever MRC fits. I also have an 034 airpipe and the extra holes in the airbox. Basically the airbox design allows for an additional inlet scoop lower down, but it is only used on other models. On ours it is blanked off, but this blanking can be removed to allow a bit more air in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kwatro View Post
Why do you think your pulley is too big?
Simply it seems that the guy at MRC who I asked told me the wrong size. I only realised recently - their standard "high torque" pulley is 179mm.

Current: 2015 Audi S5 sportback black edition (MRC stage 2)
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post #16 of 22 Old 15th May 2019, 06:18 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Dippy! Just my sort of bedtime reading!!

Very interesting! so our newer 4th gen CREC engines have 12 injectors (Direct and multipoint), the crank has been lightened by 1.6kgs, revised cam chains etc

One interesting point is the SC drive belt must have a higher tensile tension applied than the 3rd gen engine (70N more)!
Could this be, (pardon the supercharger pun) the root(s) cause of belt slippage or SC clutch issue manifesting from actual belt slippage due to the possible lower set tension?
Also I'm thinking, will the belt supplied with my new crank pulley be up to taking extra tension? I see they are standard rib belts (smooth back), but the OEM belt on mine is the longlife looking belt with textured belt back.

Belt needs extra tension due to the way the revised SC has a clutch that kicks in and out and puts sudden load on the belt, I guess. Bit like an AC compressor.

Food for thought!

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #17 of 22 Old 15th May 2019, 06:31 AM Thread Starter
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Also mine is booked in with Audi for the fuel rail recall. Has you'rs been checked, Dippy?

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #18 of 22 Old 16th May 2019, 04:16 AM
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I'm waiting for the recall notice. If I don't get one then it proves that it is not a genuine safety issue but a theoretical one (i.e. no actual reported failures on the CREC, but a risk assessment has concluded that based on related parts/suppliers the risk is sufficient to do the replacement only on a "when the car is at the dealer for another reason" basis). I don't really want an unknown level of competence Audi tech doing the job on my car unless I have to. I have inspected my fuel rails and can't find any sign of leakage.

Current: 2015 Audi S5 sportback black edition (MRC stage 2)
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Previous: Subaru Impreza WRX (wrapped around a tree)
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post #19 of 22 Old 16th May 2019, 05:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippy View Post
I'm waiting for the recall notice. If I don't get one then it proves that it is not a genuine safety issue but a theoretical one (i.e. no actual reported failures on the CREC, but a risk assessment has concluded that based on related parts/suppliers the risk is sufficient to do the replacement only on a "when the car is at the dealer for another reason" basis). I don't really want an unknown level of competence Audi tech doing the job on my car unless I have to. I have inspected my fuel rails and can't find any sign of leakage.
Yeah, this is what I thought, no S5s gone up in flames that I know of. I only phoned Audi as when checking the MOT history, it listed a recall at the bottom.

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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post #20 of 22 Old Yesterday, 09:59 PM
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Bear in mind that when sizing your ratio upgrade, at every point in the Rev range the charger speed is potentially higher. Peak power goes up but so does can torque - everywhere!

I wouldn’t worry about supercharger clutch slip if you buy the right belt and tension it properly.

I would advise buying the ones supplied by iAbed. Gates motorsport belts.

Dippy, please explain your asterisked comment above!!!



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post #21 of 22 Old Today, 12:29 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
Bear in mind that when sizing your ratio upgrade, at every point in the Rev range the charger speed is potentially higher. Peak power goes up but so does can torque - everywhere!

I wouldn’t worry about supercharger clutch slip if you buy the right belt and tension it properly.

I would advise buying the ones supplied by iAbed. Gates motorsport belts.

Dippy, please explain your asterisked comment above!!!
Thanks Adam, yeah the ratio will be 2.95 on mine and looking at the Excel sheet it falls all within the 'green' area for SC rpm, charge temps etc SC rpm at 7000rpm will be about 21,000rpm so not on the limits.

Yeah, Dippy has had no clutch slip after 2 years, so I guess if you mess too much it may do, but a conservative pulley upgrade should be fine.

The belt that came with my pulley is a BANDO USA, checked on their websit and they make belts for all sorts of stuff and seem good quality! If it does turn out not to be up to the job, I can always change it. They should be changed every 55K miles anyway according to Audi schedules.

S5 - Standard, but not for long...

2014 Audi S5 - current
2009 Audi a5 3.0TDi Tip Sport
2003 Audi A4 1.9 TDi
2004 MG ZT 190 2.5 V6
1997 BMW 328i Coupe M Sport
1994 Rover Coupe Turbo Targa top (Tomcat)
1988 Peugeot 1.9 GTi
1982 Metro 1.3s (MG herringbone/velour seats)
1984 Talbot Solara 1.6
Yamaha R6 - Gone
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Dave Kwatro is online now  
post #22 of 22 Old Today, 04:06 AM
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Adam, see my last comment in post #15

Current: 2015 Audi S5 sportback black edition (MRC stage 2)
Previous: 2001 Audi B5 S4 avant (modified)
Previous: Subaru Impreza WRX (wrapped around a tree)
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