S5 Vibration and Control Arm Replacement

[denakno]

Originally Posted by Graham

Mine however IS fixed because i dealt with the source.

Sorry but I don't follow, what do you mean with "the source"?

[C99]

Originally Posted by denakno

Sorry but I don't follow, what do you mean with "the source"?

Probably "root cause", if you know this technical term.

[denakno]

Originally Posted by C99

Probably "root cause", if you know this technical term.

Well what is the root cause according to Graham? Are you refering to
the control arms?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Meteor Ghost

Wow January of next year! That's crazy when I just oredered mine and 3-4 days later they arrived.

I agree with your diagnoses of the spacers. Have you been working with H&R about getting a perfect spacer or is that even possible?

Well Audi Europe does not recognize the control arm replacement as a valid fix for the problem. They claim it's specific to US Spec cars. I think its bullshit, they are just afraid to admit that there in fact is a design flaw of the suspension. Anyway, the dealer in Sweden has been really friendly and helpful so far and has tried to order the new control arms. Unfortunately, it appears to take some time.

Regarding the spacers: I have tried 4 different sets: 2 sets of 10 mm's, 1 set of 12 mm's and one set of 20 mm DRA spacers. All have exactly the same center diameter which is not a snug fit to neither the rim nor the hub. Vibrations have been similar regardless of which spacer to use. Without spacers: no vibration.. H&R, of course, say that their spacers are flawless and blaim production variation on my car's hubs and rims. They say their spacers are on spec and that my car is not.. Makes me laugh. I will never go close to H&R products ever again.

I need to find a spacer that fits better! Are there any other brands that are better?

(sorry to hijack this thread! now back on topic *slaps myself*)

[S509V86MT]

I just took my car in today for this problem, and didn't get anywhere with the service dept. One of the techs went out in my car for a test drive and he of course came back saying that he didn't feel any "vibration". So I took him for a ride myself and sure enough the vibration was there in both the seat and in the steering wheel, I even took my hands off the wheel to show him the shimmy, but it seemed like he wasn't convinced there was a problem with the car. He told me it was my either tires or the roads I'm driving on that are causing the vibration. He even went as far as telling that some roads have grooves or lines in them (ie. rumble strips) that can cause this vibration. I almost kicked him out the door when he said that. I did get new tires put on the car a month ago and that is when all this started to occur for me. I have had the tires rebalanced 3 times within the month without any improvement. So he told me to get the same kind of tires that I had on the car previously and this should fix my problem, if it doesn't then he'll look into the control arms. Is it possible that a different kind of tire could cause this? I have Toyo T1R's on now. The car came with Dunlop sportmax GT.
My symptoms are similar in some ways and different in others to previous posts, but I feel this "vibration" more often in the seat (mostly in back of thighs and my rear) than I do in the steering wheel, and it is not constant. I get the problem at speeds around 65mph and above as others, but not all the time, I could be driving down a long straight highway going 70mph and not feel anything then go around a turn and go down another straight away or go up or down a hill and begin to feel this vibration. To me my symptoms feel like as if there was a flat spot on the tire and I'm getting a slightly minimal to mild thumping feeling that is mostly felt in the seat but can at times occur in the steering wheel. Even at times I can see the rear view mirror shaking a little bit to even the overhang on the dash by the LCD screen and instrument panel.
So could this be a tire issue or the control arm issue or something completely else? Currently I have the Dunlop tires on order, the place that I got the Toyo's are going to give me credit on them so that I'm not paying for 2 sets of new tires.

[A5DC]

Originally Posted by S509V86MT

I almost kicked him out the door when he said that.

do it while you're still on the freeway

[S5str]

Audi goes through a process of elimination starting with the tires/wheels (mine road force balanced @ 5x by dealer) and spacers (if you have them, they'll test the car spacers on spacers off) to eliminate those as a cause. Once that was done, all by a "special" traveling Audi tech, new control arms were ordered and installed.

Audi would never admit it, but I believe that they intentionally "slow roll" the customer to see how bad you really want this...let's face it, this not a safety issue and it's costing them money...all about the $$$ in any business. Bottom line...keep pressing them, ask to see the service manager next.

[Graham]

What I mean by "source" is the mechanical eccentricity that is creating the dynamic imbalance. It is clearly the spacers or the poor fit of the spacers NOT the car. ( see my earlier post approx #26 and more importantly the link with the photos if your running 10mm spacers ). The 'effect' can be reduced with different arms etc, but all that does is hide the problem. If the fit of the sapcers to the hub has clearance, and the wheel to the spacer also has clearance, then the effect of any eccentricities is doubled. What I did is acurately measure the actual diameters of both hub and wheel and then made my own inserts on a lathe for the spacers to fit properly. The result is now perfect ( even better than it was without the spacers ). I haven't got the diameters I used available today, but if you need them I can find them and post them next week.

[SpaGP05]

Graham,

If you can excuse my ignorance..

If you run the S5 with stock rims, do you have the spacer problem?? - or do you only encounter spacer issues if trying to fit an aftermarket rim??

If the stock rims fitment to existing factory spacers are the issue, what are the alternatives for those who are loathe to learn how to use a lathe??

[S509V86MT]

Originally Posted by S5str

Audi goes through a process of elimination starting with the tires/wheels (mine road force balanced @ 5x by dealer) and spacers (if you have them, they'll test the car spacers on spacers off) to eliminate those as a cause. Once that was done, all by a "special" traveling Audi tech, new control arms were ordered and installed.

Audi would never admit it, but I believe that they intentionally "slow roll" the customer to see how bad you really want this...let's face it, this not a safety issue and it's costing them money...all about the $$$ in any business. Bottom line...keep pressing them, ask to see the service manager next.

Yea I understand that it's all about money, I even told the service guy that when he said that Audi would tell me to get the tires that came on the car instead of the ones that I have now first before Audi would even consider the control arms. Let the customer spend their money first to try to rectify the problem before they spend theirs. If these new tires don't solve the problem, which I don't think they will, I should ask Audi to be reimbursed for the money I wasted on these new tires let alone the amount of time that's going to be wasted until the problem is corrected.

At least they balanced your tires when you took your car in. My dealership didn't even try that on my new tires. They didn't do anything except take it for a short ride on the highway alone and with me and then gave me back the keys and told me to get the previous brand tires. I even told them that there is a TSB on the matter and that I could give them the TSB number plus the parts and their numbers, but the service guy was like "I haven't heard of anything like that" and didn't bother taking the time to look in his computer if there was such a thing.

You said there was a special "traveling" tech? How do you go about getting this guy to come out and look at your car?

[gotboost?]

At the end of the day, this is a design and quality issue. There should be no vibrations on a car like this PERIOD. I have never owned any Porsche, BMW, MBZ, Lexus, or Honda's for that matter that have this issue. I thought my issue was solved after road force balancing, but I was wrong. The vibration is definately there now. It is there with or without my spacers on. Just more accentuated with the spacers on. Either way, this is unacceptable.

[S5str]

press them. A simple road force balance will either identify the problem as out of round tires or a bent rims. If everything cks out, the dealer has a process, mandated by Audi, that they should follow. Start with the Service Manager and if you don't get any satisfaction there, tell them you want to talk to Audi Corporate...that usually gets their attention. BTW, the thing that I left out is that they (HBL in McLean, VA), as part of the process of elimination, also ended up replacing two of the factory OEM Dunlops that were slightly out of round and identified in the road force balance.

Good luck

[absS5]

Audi installed my new control arms.......no vibration. done and done

[sandjstickney]

Originally Posted by S509V86MT

I just took my car in today for this problem, and didn't get anywhere with the service dept. One of the techs went out in my car for a test drive and he of course came back saying that he didn't feel any "vibration". So I took him for a ride myself and sure enough the vibration was there in both the seat and in the steering wheel, I even took my hands off the wheel to show him the shimmy, but it seemed like he wasn't convinced there was a problem with the car. He told me it was my either tires or the roads I'm driving on that are causing the vibration. He even went as far as telling that some roads have grooves or lines in them (ie. rumble strips) that can cause this vibration. I almost kicked him out the door when he said that. I did get new tires put on the car a month ago and that is when all this started to occur for me. I have had the tires rebalanced 3 times within the month without any improvement. So he told me to get the same kind of tires that I had on the car previously and this should fix my problem, if it doesn't then he'll look into the control arms. Is it possible that a different kind of tire could cause this? I have Toyo T1R's on now. The car came with Dunlop sportmax GT.
My symptoms are similar in some ways and different in others to previous posts, but I feel this "vibration" more often in the seat (mostly in back of thighs and my rear) than I do in the steering wheel, and it is not constant. I get the problem at speeds around 65mph and above as others, but not all the time, I could be driving down a long straight highway going 70mph and not feel anything then go around a turn and go down another straight away or go up or down a hill and begin to feel this vibration. To me my symptoms feel like as if there was a flat spot on the tire and I'm getting a slightly minimal to mild thumping feeling that is mostly felt in the seat but can at times occur in the steering wheel. Even at times I can see the rear view mirror shaking a little bit to even the overhang on the dash by the LCD screen and instrument panel.
So could this be a tire issue or the control arm issue or something completely else? Currently I have the Dunlop tires on order, the place that I got the Toyo's are going to give me credit on them so that I'm not paying for 2 sets of new tires.

You describe the issue exactly as it appears in my 09 S5 Tip. I went through the road force, then 2 new tires, now I'm on wait list for control arms. As many have said, keep pressing.

[S509V86MT]

Originally Posted by sandjstickney

You describe the issue exactly as it appears in my 09 S5 Tip. I went through the road force, then 2 new tires, now I'm on wait list for control arms. As many have said, keep pressing.

That's just it, the dealership didn't do the road force balance. I had the tires balanced 3 times at the shop that I bought the tires. Right now I'm waiting for the Dunlops to come in that I ordered from the tire shop, not the dealership. I just had Toyo T1R's placed on the car about month ago and this is when my problems began, I didn't notice this vibration with the old tires which were Dunlop Sport Maxx GT. So that's why the dealership told me to get the old tires which maybe they're right-it's the tires causing this vibration. But if not, I'm sure they will do the force balancing before they order new control arms. But believe me I won't stop hounding them until the vibration is gone!

[Graham]

Originally Posted by SpaGP05

Graham,

If you can excuse my ignorance..

If you run the S5 with stock rims, do you have the spacer problem?? - or do you only encounter spacer issues if trying to fit an aftermarket rim??

If the stock rims fitment to existing factory spacers are the issue, what are the alternatives for those who are loathe to learn how to use a lathe??

Sorry for not replying earlier. The problem is created by the spacers ( with stock rims or with aftermarket rims ) and entirely depends on the location fits of the spcer to the hub, and the spacer to the wheel. It's also possible to kid yourself that you have fixed it by chnaging something else, becuse with large clearnces between the components, each time you refit the wheels, they go back in a relatively different position.

Other than ensuring the comonents fit properly, I can't think of a solution that truly fixes the problem, but there are many ( such as control arm bushes ) that will temporarily mask the problem.

[SpaGP05]

Thanks for the reply.. I think I get it..

[warren_cox]

Hmmm, the more of these threads I read the more concerned I am about what I'm thinking of buying in to with the S5! Maybe I'll look back at the new A4 and put up with it's lesser looks!

I've had an Audi S3 8P for the last 2 years and have spent months fighting the dealer over rear diff and clutch related issues (which were eventually fixed and resolved).

At least I have the benefit of refusing to buy the car until the issue is resolved as this sounds very similar to the symptoms of the car we are looking to buy. Thought it may be Dual Mass Flywheel related but possibly not.

[loc]

Hmmm, the more of these threads I read the more concerned I am about what I'm thinking of buying in to with the S5! Maybe I'll look back at the new A4 and put up with it's lesser looks!

A4 is the same platform, so whatever issues with A5/S5 (regards vibrations) apply to A4 as well.

Tyre and vibration issues in Audi A4 B8/A5
http://a6retrofit.tripod.com/article...vibration.html

[warren_cox]

Originally Posted by loc

A4 is the same platform, so whatever issues with A5/S5 (regards vibrations) apply to A4 as well.

Tyre and vibration issues in Audi A4 B8/A5
http://a6retrofit.tripod.com/article...vibration.html

Cheers, it seems there is NO escape!

[DaleC]

I have some good news on A5 vibration problems. Audi has done everything. Here is the low down.

1) Road force balanced my Pirelles and changed the front two tires - not fixed
2) Changed c arms and bushings - not fixed
3) rebalanced again - not fixed

Finally got a rep from Audi USA to drive with me. We drove my car on the same day and changed the entire wheels and tires from 18 Pirelies to 19 rims and Dunlops and drove it again.

A dream with the Dunlops and 19's and the problem is now curred. Audi paid for the new tires and balance but I had to shell out an additional over $2,000 for the 19 inch rims. Not happy but will sell the 18 rims on craigs list-- I only had 3000 miles on the car. This is also my third Audi so finnaly satisfied-- Rims and Dunlops finnaly made the difference. Audi also admitted the problem existed.... hope this helps others

[DaleC]

Platfrom the same but the coils are different according to the Audi rep-- the A5 is more sensitive regardlesss

[gruffle]

Warren - afaik this problem is now fixed with updated control arms on new vehicles, with (I guess) modification to the damping rubbers.

So if you're buying new shouldn't be an issue, if buying used ,this is known issue so shouldn't be impossible to get sorted should if you are unlucky enough to get it.

[warren_cox]

Originally Posted by gruffle

Warren - afaik this problem is now fixed with updated control arms on new vehicles, with (I guess) modification to the damping rubbers.

So if you're buying new shouldn't be an issue, if buying used ,this is known issue so shouldn't be impossible to get sorted should if you are unlucky enough to get it.

Brilliant. It was really pronounced on an S5 I drove a while back, but due to a change in working circumstances (mileage has just doubled annually), I think I'm going to be forced down the route of A5 3.0TDi S-Line (and probably sneak a Revo map onto it).

Thanks again, Warren

[gruffle]

I'm on 3.0TDi for the same reason - too many miles
It really is not a bad compromise though

Mapping is another issue - they've upped the security on the latest gen ECUs - dont know as anybody has cracked it yet.

and if you're going manual then no probs, but Tip auto is now finished and S-Tronic shortly to be released, you have to watch remaps on S-Tronic as will only handle 550Nm of Torque (twin small clutches), need a map that doesnt overdo it.

[warren_cox]

Originally Posted by gruffle

I'm on 3.0TDi for the same reason - too many miles
It really is not a bad compromise though

Mapping is another issue - they've upped the security on the latest gen ECUs - dont know as anybody has cracked it yet.

and if you're going manual then no probs, but Tip auto is now finished and S-Tronic shortly to be released, you have to watch remaps on S-Tronic as will only handle 550Nm of Torque (twin small clutches), need a map that doesnt overdo it.

Hmm, interesting thank you.

Same issue on the new 1.4TSi engine with DSG. The new SEAT Ibiza Cupra/Bocanegra has the same issue with remap tolerances on the DSG clutches.

I'll go for the manual box, then leave the car with Revo until they can sort something out.

[rade2008]

hello
I read all the posts about this vibration issue....I have this problem too.Now i want to change control arms and my question is if help with something? vibration disappears ? and if so is possible to appear again?
Thanks

[S5str]

Will it return, who's to say. I haven't seen any posts of the problem reoccuring....mine didn't